Bringing the 944 turbo into the 21st century

[Thom]

You started out this thread about supposedly modern stuff, which had been around before both you and I started playing with these cars.
The VEMS ECU is great, I even advised a friend to purchase one and helped him with the install. If money was no object to me I'd leave all the work to a professional shop.
I am not saying that everything new sucks, and as I said earlier these M44 products don't seem any inferior to others that are proven and been around and used on other cars for longer, but the crap attitude constantly put forward by anyone involved with these M44 stuff is plain ridiculous and doesn't do any favour to the product itself.

[Cyberpunky]

Unfortunately the idea behind this post was to simply hear what people are doing to their cars but it has now degenerated into a back in my day thread and a pi$$ing contest, and that wasn't my intent. Sadly it seems some have nothing to add, but criticism and are not contributing anything of any value, just want to put people down and slam what they are doing for being up on new options. The world doesn't sit still, as time waits for no man, but clearly that is offensive to some and just snake oil. I thought we could all be constructive but I now realize that was naive on my part. If I could delete this thread I would, as it seems my intent was lost on most and I am in the wrong place to discuss advancements.

[Cyberpunky]

You started out this thread about supposedly modern stuff, which had been around before both you and I started playing with these cars.
The VEMS ECU is great, I even advised a friend to purchase one and helped him with the install. If money was no object to me I'd leave all the work to a professional shop.
I am not saying that everything new sucks, and as I said earlier these M44 products don't seem any inferior to others that are proven and been around and used on other cars for longer, but the crap attitude constantly put forward by anyone involved with these M44 stuff is plain ridiculous and doesn't do any favour to the product itself.

Face palm.
VEMs, SCE gaskets, etc were not around before we started playing with these cars Thom. Now you are just making stuff up.

[Darwin]

Sorry but I don't buy into this cowboy culture of accepting snake oil speech just because it's allowed. If this is "sucking the joy out of everything" then I might dare saying you are probably a little too easily offended.

OK its all snake oil blah blah blah you did it better in your day etc etc.

Real life example of buying snake oil. My AFM died due to worn tracks. Tried rejigging them but no joy. Got a quote on a Motec stand alone and the ecu was just under 4K and fitting was basically about same but open cheque book as loom had to be custom made. Fair enough too as if I had that expertise I'd charge handsomely for my skills too. Then dyno tuning sessions, on top so basically just under 10K but probably not much under. Well unlike you, who clearly thinks money is no object, that wasn't viable, so had to get a plan B. I bought a VEMS system for about 2.5k. This snake oil magically plugged into my factory harness and car started first turn of the key. Huh the snake oil worked.

Anyway Thom I don't buy into your BS that anything new is snake oil and hype, but if you don't agree that's cool too but next time just scroll on by and stop wasting my time with your crap. Cheers and peace out

Honestly it cost me way less to swap to link. I made my own harness and everything. It was actually pretty easy and simple.

I don’t think these guys are sucking the joy out of anything. They offer real world experiences having dealt with many iterations if their own cars. I’ve seen the guys posting on FB about the M44 stuff, and while it looks nice, My default assumption is that they won’t last long. I dont hope they fail, but I have just seen so many small companies with good ideas never get off the ground or close up shop because they were ill prepared for the demand that ended up developing.

Also don’t get too worked up. I’ve always remembered how passionate you were about these cars, and honestly I’d be surprised if you let a couple peoples posts affect you in any significant way.

[chris white]

Not to belabor this too much - but the ‘snake oil’ comments are about the sales technique not the product. You found out the price of Motec is pretty damn high and was then sold on the VEMS. Did you look in to Link? Not with me, I could have set you up with a better system for less money than the VEMS. At one point I was asked to get involved with that project and I looked into it. It’s a fine ECU but it’s being over hyped and tuning support is based on Europe. Don’t get me started about reusing the stock harness….false economy

[Cyberpunky]

Not to belabor this too much - but the ‘snake oil’ comments are about the sales technique not the product. You found out the price of Motec is pretty damn high and was then sold on the VEMS. Did you look in to Link? Not with me, I could have set you up with a better system for less money than the VEMS. At one point I was asked to get involved with that project and I looked into it. It’s a fine ECU but it’s being over hyped and tuning support is based on Europe. Don’t get me started about reusing the stock harness….false economy

I have already replaced most of original harness so for me it was about plugging it in and turning the key. She started first try. Had to adjust req fuel a little and do an auto-tune and she has purred ever since so while I agree about stock harness, I had already addressed that issue. It's a great product and dyno tuning is an issue for most ECU's downunder except for motec and a few other expensive ECU's, that were out of my budget, but I have found a tuner here who has tuned VEMS before no problem, so will be using them.

No I didn't look at Link as I wanted a system I could literally plug in with a base tune and just drive which VEMS did with flying colours. I still don't understand the over hyped statements, as it does what it says on the box and I'm happy and think its great value. It doesn't wash my car on week ends but it works great. The fact I have been running it since fitting without a dyno tune is something I am very happy about.

Car is going in to get new turbo, HG, etc, done, as well as new main bearings, titanium springs, fix some oil leaks, and maybe some other things if required and then will go to dyno to be tuned properly

[chris white]

I still don't understand the over hyped statements, as it does what it says on the box and I'm happy and think its great value. It doesn't wash my car on week ends but it works great. The fact I have been running it since fitting without a dyno tune is something I am very happy about.

Car is going in to get new turbo, HG, etc, done, as well as new main bearings, titanium springs, fix some oil leaks, and maybe some other things if required and then will go to dyno to be tuned properly

I'm not saying that VEMS was over hyping itself, seems to be pretty competent to me. there are many standalones that can do the job well. Here is the states there was/is a group that claimed it was THE solution for the 944. Please understand that this is not about competing products, sure I sell a Link based 944 system with custom harness, all new sensors, trigger wheels and such so feel free to take that into account. I am more than happy to have more solutions out there. I am a small 'boutique' shop that usually only deals with complete projects (custom engines with engine management). Plenty of room for others to sell stuff.
In my experience you are among a very small group that could install and tune a standalone system without a ton of support. Most of my customers require a lot of help in installation, setting up and tuning (which is all included in the base price).
I have sold two Link system to people that were parts of the US VEMS group - they got their ECU but no harness for a quite a while. They were told that they had to use the 60-2 flywheel to be able to use the map that was being developed. Keep in mind that if you don't do your own wrenching swapping a flywheel is a $$$ job - $3k ish (including the flywheel). Both guys sold off their VEMS and went to Link. They were sold a promise of how easy it was going to be and the 'group' was going to have common maps to share and the European tuner would be there to help them out. Great sales idea but a little more complicated in real life.
So - nothing against VEMS, no snake oil sales from them but the US based group been way over promised. I know from experience that any ECU system requires a lot of individual support.....a serious amount (unless the customer really knows engine management and 944s - even than there a tons of questions).
Oddly enough I really wished the US VEMS thing took off and was a seamless solution. the 944 world does need more products that a true bolts on and drive.

[chris white]

Car is going in to get new turbo, HG, etc, done, as well as new main bearings, titanium springs, fix some oil leaks, and maybe some other things if required and then will go to dyno to be tuned properly

Titanium springs? what are you planning to do with that upgrade? Seems way over kill on an 8v, that whole system was not made to rev very high, its a midrange torque design. with the kind of money to make the 8v rev high you could go to 16v and really flow some air (and flow some $!)

[Cyberpunky]

Car is going in to get new turbo, HG, etc, done, as well as new main bearings, titanium springs, fix some oil leaks, and maybe some other things if required and then will go to dyno to be tuned properly

Titanium springs? what are you planning to do with that upgrade? Seems way over kill on an 8v, that whole system was not made to rev very high, its a midrange torque design. with the kind of money to make the 8v rev high you could go to 16v and really flow some air (and flow some $!)

Sorry my mistake, They are just the retainers and not sure I will bother depending on what we find once engines out

[chris white]

I wouldn't worry about the Ti retainers. If you already have them then use them - but they won't make any differldnce. Back in the day I tried to gain HP with higher RPMs but you just end up screwing up the lower end torque. I woudl rather have a turbo, cam, intake, exhaust tuned to maximize the 3000-6500 RPM range, especially the lower end of that, rather than trying to rev past 7k. With the 8v valves you will greatly accelerate guide wear above 6500.
NA guys may get some usable gains with lots of mods to an 8v, but turbo guys can do better increasing the efficiency of the mid range.
better to have a car that rockets out of the corners than a dyno queen!