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Cyberpunky wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:38 am
Face palm.
VEMs, SCE gaskets, etc were not around before we started playing with these cars Thom. Now you are just making stuff up.
Face palm squared - the bottom line is that the 944t engine platform has shown its limitations before and no new product will suddenly redefine physics.
I apologise if you feel like I pissed on your parade, but you have to acknowledge that playing the violin over products that do not redesign the wheel although are presented as such may be met with scepticism.
Cyberpunky wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:38 am
Face palm.
VEMs, SCE gaskets, etc were not around before we started playing with these cars Thom. Now you are just making stuff up.
Face palm squared - the bottom line is that the 944t engine platform has shown its limitations before and no new product will suddenly redefine physics.
I apologise if you feel like I pissed on your parade, but you have to acknowledge that playing the violin over products that do not redesign the wheel although are presented as such may be met with scepticism.
Ok Thom, vulcan gaskets, VEMS, and the other innovative stuff, have always been an option, if you say so
Facepalm cubed
I guess if you are not aware of some of the great things happening for this platform, then it must be so, and as you say, nothing new is happening anywhere. Just because your cave is comfortable and not worth venturing out of right?
I notice you haven't even addressed the gaskets and what they bring or the new ECU options or do you think they are the same as other previous options? The problems haven't changed with this platform(obviously) but the solutions being presented now are new, innovative, and cost effective.
Yes we had turbo options and they all(mostly) required custom fabrication, where my new turbo is bolt up, no fab required. My ECU is plug n play, but sure, I guess I must concede they are nothing new, as who cares about expense and ease of fitment, etc, as you old timers did it all in your day, and even if it was expensive, and complex, and hard for those without the budget or expertise, we were just undeserving of this sort of products right?
Sorry but dealing with people who think there is nothing new under the sun is tiring and a yawn fest, as you contribute nothing except the same old well I'll wait and see if any of it is any good and Ï'll stick to the old ways of doing things blah blah blah. Fact is time waits for no man and it is happening weather you care or not. These products do redesign the wheel but stick to your wagon wheels, if that's where you are comfortable, while some of us will embrace the innovation.
If your ECU is truly plug and play then it is so limited by the original sensors, injector wiring format, lack of MAP sensor, very expensive and often faulty TPS, crappy trigger sensors (hall type are much more reliable), cycling valve single port boost control….I could go on. If you have swapped any of those then it’s not plug and play.
It seems odd to me that you are raving about ‘new technology’ and then embracing bolt on and ‘plug and play’. You are limiting your turbo choice to utilize connections and plumbing from the 80’s. V bands are way better. Newer Piping configurations are better…who is keeping the wagon wheel now?
BTW - speaking for us old buggers that have innovated for decades - come back after a year (10k miles) of high boost and some track events and tell me how it works out. Hell, you might be right and then I will considered it proven, until then it’s just hype and as a (I hope) trusted guy I don't recommend anything based on ‘promises’
BTW - you guys do realized that the super fantastic Vulcan Ring Gasket is just a repackaged form of an O ring sealing system? O ringing is a really old technique…that actually works quite well
chris white wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:35 pm
BTW - you guys do realized that the super fantastic Vulcan Ring Gasket is just a repackaged form of an O ring sealing system? O ringing is a really old technique…that actually works quite well
Yes and no.
The Vulcan Cut Ring gasket actually bites .002 into the head so you don’t need to machine the head/block to accommodate the o rings. The rings are SS and quite beefy.
The gasket material is a pliable, perforated metal-core composite that eliminates coolant and oil leaks.
chris white wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:30 pm
If your ECU is truly plug and play then it is so limited by the original sensors, injector wiring format, lack of MAP sensor, very expensive and often faulty TPS, crappy trigger sensors (hall type are much more reliable), cycling valve single port boost control….I could go on. If you have swapped any of those then it’s not plug and play.
It seems odd to me that you are raving about ‘new technology’ and then embracing bolt on and ‘plug and play’. You are limiting your turbo choice to utilize connections and plumbing from the 80’s. V bands are way better. Newer Piping configurations are better…who is keeping the wagon wheel now?
BTW - speaking for us old buggers that have innovated for decades - come back after a year (10k miles) of high boost and some track events and tell me how it works out. Hell, you might be right and then I will considered it proven, until then it’s just hype and as a (I hope) trusted guy I don't recommend anything based on ‘promises’
It requires a MAP sensor on intake which is hardly a massive mod to use VEMS. Personally I was already running a DP wastegate and EBC with factory ECU so not relevant to ECU install. I later added wasted spark and also deleted cycling valve. I am still using S&R sensors but can add a trigger wheel and as many have done this with VEMS knowledge for that is readily accessible. That is the thing, I have options as it is a proper stand alone, so I can change things and simply do an auto tune or go to dyno etc, so while the MAP sensor means it is not 100% plug n play technically, it is in fact plug n play otherwise and far cheaper than any other option I could find. Yes factory wiring is a limit but as I had already replaced most it wasn't for me as this an unlimited budget build. So while you think its not important and limiting, it was very important to me.
The turbo bolts up and sure V bands better but thanks for upping my budget massively. This turbo is not a compromise as far as limiting my choice. Look into it, as its not a LR super 61 (90's tech), etc, it is as good or better than most options you can fit, modified fabrication or not. Look into it Chris, before you dismiss it out of hand based on incorrect assumptions. If I had the budget I could have got you to build me a great set up, but living on an island that just wasn't feasible option, as you would understand, although I know you have done it before and currently, for non US residents.
Surely you can understand that while I respect the great work you do, you are not the only option out there and for some, like me, not a realistic option either and so plug n play and bolt up makes a massive difference to what I can achieve, without shipping an engine over to you? Yes plug n play is a compromise but my car started first time when I fitted it unlike another option I tried that came from US and wasted over a year of my life and the expense that went along with that. Would I love a better custom set up with V bands etc, sure but I know I will achieve my goals without it.
No the HG is not just a repackaged O ring set up, as again that would be a major expense and this HG isn't a major expense. Again I say tough crowd and I'd love to have the budgets you all have but unfortunately life doesn't always work that way. I will report back in a year, and in 2 years, and 3 years, etc, and probably well before that too. Just because its isn't you doing it, doesn't make it hype either, as people are already out there loving the results, not to mention what is happening in Europe with Augtronics and other options. No offense Chris but this was meant to be a discussion and it keeps turning into a pi$$ing contest. You do great work and while I respect that, I am not asking for your permission or blessing, as its not about you but the platform. You are one very talented man but you are not the only one with talents or doing innovative stuff
Cyberpunky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:50 pmOk Thom, vulcan gaskets, VEMS, and the other innovative stuff, have always been an option, if you say so
Facepalm cubed
Facepalm^infinite
You really don't get it, do you?
Better headgaskets, standalone ECUs and better drop-in turbos were available for decades. Never heard about it? Of course you didn't, you are so hell bent that all the products of your buddies redesign the wheels that you are nearly rewriting history, like never happened before your show. In the end it is all a matter of physics, thermodynamics and electrics, regardless of the technical solutions involved. Why is it so hard for you to understand this?
Cyberpunky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:50 pmI guess if you are not aware of some of the great things happening for this platform, then it must be so, and as you say, nothing new is happening anywhere. Just because your cave is comfortable and not worth venturing out of right?
I notice you haven't even addressed the gaskets and what they bring or the new ECU options or do you think they are the same as other previous options? The problems haven't changed with this platform(obviously) but the solutions being presented now are new, innovative, and cost effective.
My cave? Just because I am not posting much does not mean I do not keep upgrading things with my car where needed, and I have other cars to deal with these days, sorry, and a life too. Also I see no motivation in arguing or justify myself against pretended new prophets throwing stones at people who don't buy into their BS and who are agressively trying to take on the world with products that do NOT redefine the law of physics.
Cyberpunky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:50 pmYes we had turbo options and they all(mostly) required custom fabrication, where my new turbo is bolt up, no fab required. My ECU is plug n play, but sure, I guess I must concede they are nothing new, as who cares about expense and ease of fitment, etc, as you old timers did it all in your day, and even if it was expensive, and complex, and hard for those without the budget or expertise, we were just undeserving of this sort of products right?
Ok, so pull your fingers, talk with people and you may find someone who can weld and can help you with the install of an off-the-shelf turbo. You will make contacts that may turn into friends in the process who may teach you a thing or two about what they do with their own "platforms" and that you may incorporate into your car, rather than sit in your CAVE in front of your computer buying plug-in stuff pretended to redesign the wheel.
Cyberpunky wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:50 pm
Sorry but dealing with people who think there is nothing new under the sun is tiring and a yawn fest, as you contribute nothing except the same old well I'll wait and see if any of it is any good and Ï'll stick to the old ways of doing things blah blah blah. Fact is time waits for no man and it is happening weather you care or not. These products do redesign the wheel but stick to your wagon wheels, if that's where you are comfortable, while some of us will embrace the innovation.
Your products do not redesign the wheels and you cannot see that because you miserably fail to see the whole picture - physics is what it is, and the boundaries have already been met on these engines by folks who were clever enough to put to good use the products they had to deal with at the point they were upgrading these engines, understanding and finding for themselves the limitations and doing the necessary analysis and work to make their way around them. If you are convinced that just plugging in or fitting/installing a few fancy bits and bobs here is pushing the boundaries, then it is all that should matter to you, but you better get it once and for all that not everyone will agree.
Thom wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:21 am
Facepalm^infinite
You really don't get it, do you?
Better headgaskets, standalone ECUs and better drop-in turbos were available for decades. Never heard about it? Of course you didn't, you are so hell bent that all the products of your buddies redesign the wheels that you are nearly rewriting history, like never happened before your show. In the end it is all a matter of physics, thermodynamics and electrics, regardless of the technical solutions involved. Why is it so hard for you to understand this?
My cave? Just because I am not posting much does not mean I do not keep upgrading things with my car where needed, and I have other cars to deal with these days, sorry, and a life too. Also I see no motivation in arguing or justify myself against pretended new prophets throwing stones at people who don't buy into their BS and who are agressively trying to take on the world with products that do NOT redefine the law of physics.
and yet here you are arguing even with your "life"
Of course there has always been options but none bolt on or plug n play or cheap, and the new HG is well new and so is a change in the "wheel" design. I don't make these products so am not some profit, just wanting to discuss stuff, which you fail to do each time you post on something you claim to have no interest in Face palm "sigh"
Thom wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:21 am
Ok, so pull your fingers, talk with people and you may find someone who can weld and can help you with the install of an off-the-shelf turbo. You will make contacts that may turn into friends in the process who may teach you a thing or two about what they do with their own "platforms" and that you may incorporate into your car, rather than sit in your CAVE in front of your computer buying plug-in stuff pretended to redesign the wheel.
Huh? Why would I pay someone to fabricate an off theshelf turbo when I have a bolt up that is state of the art? Makes no sense but thanks for the suggestion
Thom wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:21 am
Your products do not redesign the wheels and you cannot see that because you miserably fail to see the whole picture - physics is what it is, and the boundaries have already been met on these engines by folks who were clever enough to put to good use the products they had to deal with at the point they were upgrading these engines, understanding and finding for themselves the limitations and doing the necessary analysis and work to make their way around them. If you are convinced that just plugging in or fitting/installing a few fancy bits and bobs here is pushing the boundaries, then it is all that should matter to you, but you better get it once and for all that not everyone will agree.
Oh I get that you don't agree but if you can't see the innovation from your cave that is cool, but if that is the case no need to comment then is there ? Sure our platform has had lots of people in the past make options and that hasn't stopped because you want it too, has it ? Sorry you can't understand these simple points and want to argue that it has all been done before and no matter what I say, you think that innovation is impossible. Well it is not and just the SCE HG shows this, but again ignore what I am talking about and just enjoy your cave and don't comment if that is all you can say as you have contributed nothing but skepticism and nothing of any value. A product being a direct bolt on or plug n play is not a step backwards. Quite the opposite actually and the fact they are capable of getting up to 500 HP reliably isn't exactly a draw back either.
Please don't try and put me down Thom because I am
A/: on a computer, as are you and you are and inferring I have no life, when by replying you are committing the same act of having no life either. Makes no sense
B/: that because these products don't require advanced fabrication, that they are somehow inferior because anyone can use them. Like I said to Chris I am not looking for your permission or blessing.
Do you have anything you have done that could possibly contribute to this thread instead of just wasting everyone's time with your pedantic and useless posts?
