Yet another side quest on my 86 Turbo No Start

[Richey]

I've been working on a no start on my 86 Turbo and one of the rabbit holes I've gone down is cleaning the injectors which I think at least 3 maybe 4 of them were stuck and not firing until I tapped on them. I discovered this while rebuilding and cleaning them.

When I went to put everything back together I must have bumped one of the plug wires and a tiny piece of the heat protection that's very brittle broke off and right down the hole for the #1 cylinder it went when I bumped it as I was going to reinstall the fuel rail.

So now I've got to figure out how to fish it out. I've fond some cheap bore scopes with grabber claws on Amazon so I guess that's what I'm going to try. If that does not work do I need to pull the intake and go after it from that angle or am I going to have to pull the head? It seems like one side quest on this car leads to another and another and 6 months later I get to work on the original issue I was trying to fix.

[Nashvegas]

Hmmm... What exactly fell down there? I’m struggling to figure out what broke and fell down and what you mean by “heat protection” -- metal or plastic? Here’s an image - can you circle or describe.

My general advice would be if it’s metal = Problem and you need to get it out before you start that motor. If it’s plastic, you leave it and the motor will ingest it and chew it up and there will be little risk for any damage (I suspect it’s plastic, since you said “brittle”)? But -- before I make that determination if you can be more descriptive about what fell... that would help.

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[Richey]

It's this piece that's a protective cover on one of the spark plug wires. It's maybe 1-2mm wide and maybe 4-5mm long. As brittle as it is I think it would turn to powder almost instantly. Plug wires and a new rotor cap are on my list of things to do but right now I want to clear my no start condition before moving on to the next task.

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[Tom]

I'd probably fashion some make-shift hose reducer on the end of a shop-vac and feed it down the spark plug hole. If you have one of those $25 iPhone scope things you might even be able to guide the suction tube to it, but just wiggling the hose around long enough would probably get it. That said, I agree the plastic is not likely to hurt much. Might get stuck on the turbine I guess or gum up the catalytic converter 1%, but even that would probably burn off over time. Also, if the spark plug wires are crumbling on the outside, they are bad on the inside and overdue for replacement. They might just help with the no start -- stranger things have happened -- and a necessary expense either way.

[dr bob]

If Tom's vacuum method doesn't work...

Not that I've personally ever done such a thing, but...

For small stuff, I rotate the engine to almost top dead center on the exhaust stroke, so the exhaust valve is open and the piston is close to top of stroke. Same as cylinder volume is smallest. My compression gauge has a quick-connect on the connecting hose, so it gets screwed into the spark plug hole, and compressed air hose connects to it.

Critical: "brace" the crankshaft to keep it from turning backwards. Socket, breaker bar, whatever.

Then turn on the air and let it blow the offending piece out through the exhaust.

On turbo cars, there's a likelihood that the offending piece will end up in the turbine at some point. (see: Murphy, Edsel et al) Plan for it.

Same guidance applies on cylinder positioning for Tom's vacuum method, so there's room for air to enter the cylinder and allow a greater velocity at the plug hole. No need to brace the crankshaft.

-----

There are lots of theories about black holes in the universe, how they seem to distort gravities around them to the point where matter just disappears. Spark plug holes are domestic examples of the same phenomena. Anything dropped from above within a vertical cone with 32.4º slope on the walls will inevitably find its way into the hole. The angles of the cone wall are measured from the minor diameter of the threaded plug hole. But the selective gravity is such that parts and pieces larger than that minor diameter easily pass through one way, yet often refuse to pass the opposite way. They shrink in the way down and disappear, reappear once inside the cylinder, and expand on the way up. I think it's similar to Fig Newton's fifth law of reciprocity, where the mass/volume value inverts as the object passes through. Nikolai Venturi (Nick to his friends) postulated a similar idea, but for fluid stuff that's not visible to the naked eye. Shrinks, then expands again as it passes through. /s/

[Richey]

I'm going to bore scope it Monday and see where it is. Then I think I'm going to use some small pipe connected to a vacuum pump to see if I can get hold of it and pull it out the injector port or the spark plug hole using the camera in the opposite port. I tried doing this last night but my old Milwaukee scope's picture quality is so bad I can't make much out of it.

The plug wires test out well enough that the car should start which is the goal. I really want to just start the car prior to doing the timing belt so I know what it should sound like when I'm finished. Then after the belt is done I'm going to move back to finishing fuel/ignition system which was what I wanted to do after the timing belt.

I'd probably fashion some make-shift hose reducer on the end of a shop-vac and feed it down the spark plug hole. If you have one of those $25 iPhone scope things you might even be able to guide the suction tube to it, but just wiggling the hose around long enough would probably get it. That said, I agree the plastic is not likely to hurt much. Might get stuck on the turbine I guess or gum up the catalytic converter 1%, but even that would probably burn off over time. Also, if the spark plug wires are crumbling on the outside, they are bad on the inside and overdue for replacement. They might just help with the no start -- stranger things have happened -- and a necessary expense either way.

[gb951]

Man, does this take me back... In 1981, I was changing the plugs on my 1980 VW Scirocco, and my long sleeve touched a zip tie and broke off the end... I gasped as I watched it flip into the air and, boom, pop right into one of the spark plug holes (I had all the plugs out at the same time). Panic set in, but I maneuvered the piston to where I could see the piece, and, with a bit of wheel bearing grease on the end of a long screwdriver, I was able to lift it out of the cylinder and out of harm's way.

Pilots have a saying, "checklists are written in blood." From that day forward (44 years and counting) I only have one spark plug hole open at a time.... (Despite having several borescopes that might make the retrieval job a lot easier now...)

[Richey]

I didn't have much choice on this one. I had an assembled fuel rail and was installing it so all of the injector holes were uncovered. This stuff is very brittle so I don't think it will be an issue if I can't get it out. I'd be a lot more concerned about something like a zip tie that's not going to crumble so easy. I have some other pieces of the same material and I dropped some on the garage floor and it just breaks up.

Man, does this take me back... In 1981, I was changing the plugs on my 1980 VW Scirocco, and my long sleeve touched a zip tie and broke off the end... I gasped as I watched it flip into the air and, boom, pop right into one of the spark plug holes (I had all the plugs out at the same time). Panic set in, but I maneuvered the piston to where I could see the piece, and, with a bit of wheel bearing grease on the end of a long screwdriver, I was able to lift it out of the cylinder and out of harm's way.

Pilots have a saying, "checklists are written in blood." From that day forward (44 years and counting) I only have one spark plug hole open at a time.... (Despite having several borescopes that might make the retrieval job a lot easier now...)

[Richey]

I got it out and there wound up being two pieces in there. I used an inspection camera with a hook attachment and some grease on the end of it. One piece was on the valve and the other down in there. It was easier to knock the piece on the valve down on top of the piston then pick them both up from there.

It would have probably worked its way out but I had an excuse to buy another tool I needed anyways.

For reference this is 4mm 1/4" socket next to the two pieces.