Bat Affect: Value vs Enjoyment

[BrewKaiser]

Also posted to the 718formum, but curious how you 'pokes' feel about this.

Like I'm sure many others on this forum, as an enthusiast I watch BaT/Cars&Bids closely to see other cool cars for sale and get a sense of market value for the cars I own. Prices for quality used cars has undoubtedly shot up in recent years. As I watch auctions on cars I am interested in or already own I am struck with a profound realization of the inverse relationship of increasing vehicle value and enjoyment.

While I am delighted to see the value for my vehicles increase, spurred on by desperation in certain buyers looking for vehicles for which there are no more allocations (say 718 GT4/Spyder/GTS), I also now feel more compelled preserve my vehicle. Long weekend drives rowing the gears now carries a bit of guilt and concern. "Am I putting too many miles on?" "What if I pick up a rock chip through the PPF?"

This was was highlighted for me in a recent BaT auction for a 718 Spyder. Bidders clearly wanting an excuse to look past certain blemishes and they likely would have paid top dollar for a unicorn condition low mileage example. Ultimately, the winning bid was likely below market - the car was not perfect cosmetically. It got me thinking, wouldn't it make more sense to buy a higher mileage desirable car with some flaws and drive the S**T out of it without concern, than look for that perfect example and worry about diminishing my investment.

The flip side is how quick potential buyers are to dismiss a great car with moderate mileage, a logical mod, or a couple of paint chips. Maybe it's buying strategy, but I do feel buyers tend to have unreasonable expectations. If a perfect car really matters for them to pay top dollar, then logic follows they likely are are not in the drive the S**T out of camp are will take another fantastic car off the road to sit in a garage somewhere.

How are you all dealing with this? Obviously, "N+1" is a great option for those with the means to have multiple cars.

[blueline]

I take excellent care of my cars but they are driven. That's why they were built in my opinion. My nice little GT4 that I specced out and ordered and took delivery of new already has about 2500 track miles with more to come.

The TTS doesn't get driven enough but that's largely because I don't have that many opportunities to cruise around. I plan on changing that as I can.

I don't purposely take nice cars to places where I might expect damage or where they might be the subject of vandal-type abuse, but I cannot worry about idiot drivers or the unexpected. I would simply say take reasonable precautions and go for it - drive the cars.

Speculators aside, when all is said and done, vehicles are just material things meant to be driven, worked and enjoyed. I feel that to be especially true for our Porsches. That won't happen if they're enclosed in airtight, bulletproof plexiglass tombs for guests to oooh and ahhhh at.

Having said all of that, if I had a 50 or 75 year-old museum piece worth millions, then yeah, it's got to mostly sit. But that scenario won't be happening with me unless someone gifts me such a gem!

As for newer cars, I say drive 'em!

[Tom]

For me, it's about striking a happy balance. Enjoy the car and take the best care of it you can. It really comes down your own value system and what is important to you. I hate door dings, so I almost never park my Porsches next to another car. But I don't value having a super low mile car just to have it, so don't really worry about the miles per se. I also have no issue pushing a car hard -- mechanicals can all be fixed. I often lament selling my near-perfect 32k mile '85 911 for $20k back in the day, but the reality is, the cost of keeping it perfect like that over the last 30+ years would likely exceed even today's market value for it, so suspect there are very very few cars that justify that kind of treatment from a purely financial perspective. But if someone takes great joy in having a super low mile car to take to shows, etc., who are we to tell them they are wrong. If you're in the market for a used car, I tend to agree that you are better off buying a 'typical' used car and avoiding the premium for a unicorn, especially if you plan to drive it an not keep it in a bubble.

[BrewKaiser]

Funny, I actually just got back from the Porsche dealer to pick up our Cayenne (That's a whole other story for another time!). They just got a GT3RS Weissach in. I asked my PSA if any of their customers actually track these cars much less drive them. Heads were shaking sideways. Such a same.

I, too, park far far away and take good car of my cars. My German OCD is my issue. Need to remind myself to enjoy what I've got while I can. @tom, yes balance is key.

Speaking of 50 yo cars. I'm actually looking for '68-'74 driver's cars like GTV2000, Datsun 510, etc. Assuming I can get into one I would oddly have not qualms about daily driving these older cars.

[blueline]

Funny, I actually just got back from the Porsche dealer to pick up our Cayenne (That's a whole other story for another time!). They just got a GT3RS Weissach in. I asked my PSA if any of their customers actually track these cars much less drive them. Heads were shaking sideways. Such a same.

I, too, park far far away and take good car of my cars. My German OCD is my issue. Need to remind myself to enjoy what I've got while I can. @tom, yes balance is key.

Speaking of 50 yo cars. I'm actually looking for '68-'74 driver's cars like GTV2000, Datsun 510, etc. Assuming I can get into one I would oddly have not qualms about daily driving these older cars.

Memories. I had a basic, no-frills '73 Datsun 510 4dr (or maybe it was a '74 610) - dark green. Bought it new. Dirt cheap back then, even for someone with not much money. It was cheap enough that I was able to also buy a new, plain orange Datsun pickup. This was Detroit in the early 70's, and foreign cars, especially those from Japan, were not an easy sell. Dealers there discounted heavily as I recall.

Sold the truck soon after to a friend. Sold the 510/610 a year or so later. Too many vehicles as I already had my '72 240Z that I had purchased while still in the service.

Was working at Ford at the time and my non-American rides drew a lot of sideways glances when I pulled into the employee lot, most not too approving I suspect but I didn't care. (This was in Detroit after all and back then anything not from the Big Three was frowned upon.)

I drove the wheels off the 240Z until the frame basically rusted in half seven or so years and 175k miles later, nicely matching the completely eaten up rear quarters. Yeah, I had Ziebarted the car, washed it all the time, etc. Salt!

Meh. Didn't matter as early Z's would have rusted if even if they were stored in a vat of oil.

PS - to your point, those old Datsuns were well made, simple cars that would run forever if properly maintained. (And were not rusted out hulks!)

[BrewKaiser]

Those were some of the best years of foreign import drivers cars. 4-bangers kicking the snot outta V8s all day long. Easy to do when Japanese and Euro imports were sub 2000 lbs.

Super fun drivers. Looking forward to getting into one

240Zs were fantastic. Still are!

Hardest part nowadays is finding one that hasn’t been rusted out and modified 5 ways from Sunday.

[Stormy_Monday]

I've had my '22 GTS 4.0 a little over a year now. Working on 9K miles. It's my daily driver. Road trip car. Drive to SC to jam with friends car. My previous Boxster S also did all these duties. I get a few minutes of enjoyment just driving to the grocery store and back. Great attribute of this car.

And I looked at older stuff from my past, but I don't have the attention span any more to deal with an old car.

My two cents.

[jhartog]

Interesting post. I am fairly new to these kinds of cars and the associated discussions. But when I see many of the questions and comments on the auction sites, I marvel at the patience of the the sellers because of the nitpickiness. Indeed, there are so many would-be buyers (maybe just tire kicking) who turn their noses up at a car that has more than minimal miles on it. (Also absurdly ridiculous are the people who post initial bids on <$10,000 for a car that will sell for >$100,000.)

[dr bob]

I can remember the days of selling interesting used cars in the pre-internet ages, listening to the potential buyers go through their lists of mileage and paint chips gripes to further discount the asking price. I'd offer the discount they asked from the "new" price, and that would generally settle the discussion down. My cars tend to be drivers, else why bother buying them. As others share for theirs, I tend to be careful about where and how they are driven and parked. As far as the commenters at auction sites, they are marginally better than the deserve-a-bigger-discount face to face buyers. Seems like many commenters at the auctions sites are model enthusiasts and owners, so some of the stupid comments get corrected before bidding ends.

Still... I'm always surprised when a seller doesn't bother to at least clean the car before taking sales photos for Craigslist or BaT or in between. Paint chips aren't that tough to deal with if you take care them on a regular basis. Even some minimum Dr. Colorchip effort will stave off a large fraction of the nit-picking complainers. Eliminate the common complaint discussion areas with a little thought and effort up front, and allow the bidders a chance to discuss more important things.

As far as those low-ball initial offers, I've managed to buy several interesting cars over the years by making low but valid instant-cash offers on them. Timing can be everything. On auction sites there's a much smaller chance of success with that strategy, but bidding is usually free so there's nothing to lose. BaT used to be pretty stingy on setting high reserves since they make little money if a car doesn't actually sell. Meanwhile, many premium live auction houses will do some market research and publish an expected sale price range to maybe weed out the bottom feeders. Flipping through the Barret-Jackson LV auction on Friday, some interesting but not "premium" cars sold for pretty low (IMO) prices. No reserves at their auctions, so a seller can only hope for a couple serious enthusiasts willing to bring the "values" up.

Fun stuff!

[Tom]

I can remember the days of selling interesting used cars in the pre-internet ages, listening to the potential buyers go through their lists of mileage and paint chips gripes to further discount the asking price. I'd offer the discount they asked from the "new" price, and that would generally settle the discussion down. My cars tend to be drivers, else why bother buying them. As others share for theirs, I tend to be careful about where and how they are driven and parked. As far as the commenters at auction sites, they are marginally better than the deserve-a-bigger-discount face to face buyers. Seems like many commenters at the auctions sites are model enthusiasts and owners, so some of the stupid comments get corrected before bidding ends.

Still... I'm always surprised when a seller doesn't bother to at least clean the car before taking sales photos for Craigslist or BaT or in between. Paint chips aren't that tough to deal with if you take care them on a regular basis. Even some minimum Dr. Colorchip effort will stave off a large fraction of the nit-picking complainers. Eliminate the common complaint discussion areas with a little thought and effort up front, and allow the bidders a chance to discuss more important things.

As far as those low-ball initial offers, I've managed to buy several interesting cars over the years by making low but valid instant-cash offers on them. Timing can be everything. On auction sites there's a much smaller chance of success with that strategy, but bidding is usually free so there's nothing to lose. BaT used to be pretty stingy on setting high reserves since they make little money if a car doesn't actually sell. Meanwhile, many premium live auction houses will do some market research and publish an expected sale price range to maybe weed out the bottom feeders. Flipping through the Barret-Jackson LV auction on Friday, some interesting but not "premium" cars sold for pretty low (IMO) prices. No reserves at their auctions, so a seller can only hope for a couple serious enthusiasts willing to bring the "values" up.

Fun stuff!

Pre-internet days had their own charm for sure. I remember waiting for my dad to finish reading the newspaper so I could scour the cars listed in the classified ads. I think I learned how to read doing that. My family never got it -- I was too young for a driver license, too young for a job, and had virtually no money, but that never stopped me. I also miss the days of the original paper Autotrader. It was like the classified, but you got a picture of every car! Came out every Friday and was available at all your finer 7-11's and liquor stores. But back on topic, I'm not sure I've had more fun in any fancy new car than I did beating the stuffing out of my hand-me-down, mustard yellow, 1977 Toyota Corolla. It's probably the only car I've ever driven to its true limits.