I’m writing this not so much as a review, but more so as a guide to what to expect. This is based on my personal experience and may or may not be the same for you.
Backstory
I bought my first 88' non S model 951 late 2022 and have been working toward the goal of a restomod. First order of business was to sort the suspension so all new rubber where any rubber exists was replaced with Elephant Racing rubber. Intrax 1K2 coil overs were added as well. It already came with a bigger rear sway bar and a front strut sway bar. Done and done.
As she sits after suspension upgrades and 996 Carrera III BBS wheels during a blast up the Sea to Sky highway toward Whistler, BC.
Now for the brakes. I wanted to go big for stopping power and bling. This isn’t the place to tell me why 951 brakes are “enough”, because they’re not for what I want to do. I've done a custom colour on them that would be one of the reasons wny 951 brakes would not work for me. I read about all sorts of options and settled on the 996TT adapters from 9Products.com. They looked good and are the only game in town for buying these as no one else has stepped up with a solution, as far as I know. At least, anyone else that used to offer something has since ceased operations.
I got most of what I needed at the end of last year and I had Antti the owner of 9products.com send me the discs and pads to go with the adapters since I logically assumed that he’d know the part #’s and would send me a plug & play setup. Errrm, no. He sent me the right parts, but there is NO guidance as to how the kit bolts up. Now, for the more mechanically inclined among you, this may not be an issue as obvious is obvious. I haven't the facilities nor the tools for such a job so I left this to my local Porsche guys to deal with for me. Great shop, great guys, that go above and beyond for me, so we’re all good there. They scratched their head for a while after I left them to do their thing, and they realized that what was supposed to be, wasn’t.
Front brakes - You have the option of using the adapters for 996TT, GT2 or GT3 callipers respectively. I opted for the 996TT due to availability, cost and I wanted to retain the option for 17” wheels, for now. You have two disc options. The standard 996TT 330mm option or move up to the 350mm found on the 997. I chose the 350mm. This is the fun part. I asked Antti if I’d need a spacer for the bigger discs as even Girodisc sends one for 996TT owners that are upgrading their discs to the 350mm. He said I did not need such an adapter. Well, as I write this my car is in the air on a rack at the shop waiting on new spacers to be made locally since I was given wrong information, and not enough parts as I would have ordered the spacers if Antti said “yes” instead of “no”. Remember, he sent me everything because he was supposed to send me everything that works TOGETHER. He didn’t. But why didn’t I just order the spacers to be overnighted from Finlnad to Western Canada, you may ask? That leads to the next issue.
The front adapters
Loose mockup of how everything will look.
Rear brakes - It is clear on his website that if you’re running 996TT rear callipers with 330mm discs, you need to mill the legs of the rear callipers down by about 10 or 11mm. This is one reason why I wanted 350mm discs, so I could avoid having to do this. Simple bolt on affaire, right? Wrong. The adapters themselves were not right. Once everything was assembled, the pads that he sent me (OEM Textar for the 996TT) left about 2mm of overhang on the disc. So, the adapter has to be milled down 2mm at the same shop that is making my supposedly unnecessary front spacers as well.
Rear adapters that are 2mm too thick
E-Brake - This was a cool option to include as it helps you to retain a normal street experience by keeping the E-brake functional with an adapter bracket. What you don’t know, because there are no instructions of guidelines online or sent in hard copy, is that the rear hubs have to be removed entirely for the adapter to be installed. They contacted Antti directly and he confirmed all of their assumptions, EXCLUDING the fact that the hub itself has to be modified to allow the factory parking adjustment hole to line up with the 350mm discs. Good times.
E-brake adapters
Hub alignment for the 350mm discs
Hub mods to accommodate the "bolt on" e-brake adapter.
So, as it stands, my car has been in the air on a lift for five days. The hubs coming off has allowed another “while we’re in there” moment so that the bearings can all be replaced, so that’s an overall good thing. However, the inaccuracy of the machine work for the rear adapters, the misinformation about the absolute need for spacers for the front adapters, and the undocumented need for modification of the rear hubs for the e-brake adapter has compelled me to share for anyone else considering this upgrade.
Pros:
The parts are pretty.
The centering rings were a PERFECT fit.
Cons:
They were not made properly.
There are NO instructions whatsoever.
They are not what the advertising says they are.
More custom work is needed to allow them to work.
They’re bloody expensive to begin with, costing me 2100.00. USD (2900 CDN) for all of the parts (adapters, discs, pads, etc.). After installing them using a shop which will most likely be another 1500 dollars, this makes them a very poor value. If you can do the work yourself, including the modifications, they’re still pricey but a better financial fit for your budget. As I think of it, here is the breakdown.
ZERO documentation and minimal after sales support. Antti is very busy doing other things and told me that he doesn't even have the equipment to make these components himself any longer. That's right; he farms out the work to another shop in Finland. I would sometimes send him a Whatsapp message with two or three questions, and sometimes follow up with an email as well. Days would go by before I'd get a reply and usually with an answer for only the first question.
Used callipers - 1100.00
Powder coating - 350.00
Rebuild kit and labor - 250.00
Adapters, 350mm discs, brake pads, centering rings, etc. - 2900.00
Shop labor - Unknown, likely 1500.00.
Total - 6100.00 CDN dollars.
As mentioned, I don't have the tools or the facilities to perform a job such as this myself. I could figure out, because that's the kind of person I am, but I also don't have the time to do so due to running two businesses. In the end, this cost the same amount of money as my Stoptech BBK for my Lexus GX.
Recommendations? Take your car to a good machine shop and have them make the adapters for you based on the measurements of YOUR car, not someone else’s. If you have no budget because you can afford these, and the extra work (and money) it takes to make them work, then sure, they’re pretty and if your shop is good then it will work, I assume.
And after all these mods and the wayyyy too big expense, I don't even know if this will work well once it's all put together. Wish me luck.
996TT Brake Upgrade For My 951 - BIG MONEY
- Tom
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Hopefully, you will end up with awesome brakes when all is said and done, but message received loud and clear about this vendor! Very helpful for the community to hear real-life experiences like this, just sorry it was at your expense!Jotronic wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:04 pm I’m writing this not so much as a review, but more so as a guide to what to expect. This is based on my personal experience and may or may not be the same for you.
Backstory
I bought my first 88' non S model 951 late 2022 and have been working toward the goal of a restomod. First order of business was to sort the suspension so all new rubber where any rubber exists was replaced with Elephant Racing rubber. Intrax 1K2 coil overs were added as well. It already came with a bigger rear sway bar and a front strut sway bar. Done and done.
As she sits after suspension upgrades and 996 Carrera III BBS wheels during a blast up the Sea to Sky highway toward Whistler, BC.
Now for the brakes. I wanted to go big for stopping power and bling. This isn’t the place to tell me why 951 brakes are “enough”, because they’re not for what I want to do. I've done a custom colour on them that would be one of the reasons wny 951 brakes would not work for me. I read about all sorts of options and settled on the 996TT adapters from 9Products.com. They looked good and are the only game in town for buying these as no one else has stepped up with a solution, as far as I know. At least, anyone else that used to offer something has since ceased operations.
I got most of what I needed at the end of last year and I had Antti the owner of 9products.com send me the discs and pads to go with the adapters since I logically assumed that he’d know the part #’s and would send me a plug & play setup. Errrm, no. He sent me the right parts, but there is NO guidance as to how the kit bolts up. Now, for the more mechanically inclined among you, this may not be an issue as obvious is obvious. I haven't the facilities nor the tools for such a job so I left this to my local Porsche guys to deal with for me. Great shop, great guys, that go above and beyond for me, so we’re all good there. They scratched their head for a while after I left them to do their thing, and they realized that what was supposed to be, wasn’t.
Front brakes - You have the option of using the adapters for 996TT, GT2 or GT3 callipers respectively. I opted for the 996TT due to availability, cost and I wanted to retain the option for 17” wheels, for now. You have two disc options. The standard 996TT 330mm option or move up to the 350mm found on the 997. I chose the 350mm. This is the fun part. I asked Antti if I’d need a spacer for the bigger discs as even Girodisc sends one for 996TT owners that are upgrading their discs to the 350mm. He said I did not need such an adapter. Well, as I write this my car is in the air on a rack at the shop waiting on new spacers to be made locally since I was given wrong information, and not enough parts as I would have ordered the spacers if Antti said “yes” instead of “no”. Remember, he sent me everything because he was supposed to send me everything that works TOGETHER. He didn’t. But why didn’t I just order the spacers to be overnighted from Finlnad to Western Canada, you may ask? That leads to the next issue.
The front adapters
9P-baf44-TGT.jpg
Loose mockup of how everything will look.
Rear brakes - It is clear on his website that if you’re running 996TT rear callipers with 330mm discs, you need to mill the legs of the rear callipers down by about 10 or 11mm. This is one reason why I wanted 350mm discs, so I could avoid having to do this. Simple bolt on affaire, right? Wrong. The adapters themselves were not right. Once everything was assembled, the pads that he sent me (OEM Textar for the 996TT) left about 2mm of overhang on the disc. So, the adapter has to be milled down 2mm at the same shop that is making my supposedly unnecessary front spacers as well.
Rear adapters that are 2mm too thick
9P-bar44-TGT.jpg
E-Brake - This was a cool option to include as it helps you to retain a normal street experience by keeping the E-brake functional with an adapter bracket. What you don’t know, because there are no instructions of guidelines online or sent in hard copy, is that the rear hubs have to be removed entirely for the adapter to be installed. They contacted Antti directly and he confirmed all of their assumptions, EXCLUDING the fact that the hub itself has to be modified to allow the factory parking adjustment hole to line up with the 350mm discs. Good times.
E-brake adapters
9P-hba44.jpg
Hub alignment for the 350mm discs
hub.jpeg
Hub mods to accommodate the "bolt on" e-brake adapter.
adapter1.jpeg
adapter2.jpeg
So, as it stands, my car has been in the air on a lift for five days. The hubs coming off has allowed another “while we’re in there” moment so that the bearings can all be replaced, so that’s an overall good thing. However, the inaccuracy of the machine work for the rear adapters, the misinformation about the absolute need for spacers for the front adapters, and the undocumented need for modification of the rear hubs for the e-brake adapter has compelled me to share for anyone else considering this upgrade.
Pros:
The parts are pretty.
The centering rings were a PERFECT fit.
9P-44rc.jpg
Cons:
They were not made properly.
There are NO instructions whatsoever.
They are not what the advertising says they are.
More custom work is needed to allow them to work.
They’re bloody expensive to begin with, costing me 2100.00. USD (2900 CDN) for all of the parts (adapters, discs, pads, etc.). After installing them using a shop which will most likely be another 1500 dollars, this makes them a very poor value. If you can do the work yourself, including the modifications, they’re still pricey but a better financial fit for your budget. As I think of it, here is the breakdown.
ZERO documentation and minimal after sales support. Antti is very busy doing other things and told me that he doesn't even have the equipment to make these components himself any longer. That's right; he farms out the work to another shop in Finland. I would sometimes send him a Whatsapp message with two or three questions, and sometimes follow up with an email as well. Days would go by before I'd get a reply and usually with an answer for only the first question.
Used callipers - 1100.00
Powder coating - 350.00
Rebuild kit and labor - 250.00
Adapters, 350mm discs, brake pads, centering rings, etc. - 2900.00
Shop labor - Unknown, likely 1500.00.
Total - 6100.00 CDN dollars.
As mentioned, I don't have the tools or the facilities to perform a job such as this myself. I could figure out, because that's the kind of person I am, but I also don't have the time to do so due to running two businesses. In the end, this cost the same amount of money as my Stoptech BBK for my Lexus GX.
Recommendations? Take your car to a good machine shop and have them make the adapters for you based on the measurements of YOUR car, not someone else’s. If you have no budget because you can afford these, and the extra work (and money) it takes to make them work, then sure, they’re pretty and if your shop is good then it will work, I assume.
And after all these mods and the wayyyy too big expense, I don't even know if this will work well once it's all put together. Wish me luck.
- Belgian951
- Posts: 156
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Ugh, sad to read this experience. Your brakes would be about half my car's worth. I think I'll keep my brakes stock until they break..
1986 944 Turbo Garnet Rot Metallic
I share you misery. Way too often we buy aftermarket goodies to find out they don't fit or are of poor quality. In this case they do 'look' well made. Doesn't make sense that he'd do this so incorrectly as to invite more grief upon himself let alone his customers? Have you found other people with similar complaints?
I remember a few guys doing similar conversions on old Rennlist threads. Did you happen to see those?
I remember a few guys doing similar conversions on old Rennlist threads. Did you happen to see those?
- Jotronic
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Yeah, I researched this to death as I didn't want to get anything wrong with compatibility. I spoke to several people that did this swap, some with this kit specifically, some with home made adapters. No one told me they had the same issues from 9products.com. That's part of the reason why I'm documenting this.333pg333 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:40 pm I share you misery. Way too often we buy aftermarket goodies to find out they don't fit or are of poor quality. In this case they do 'look' well made. Doesn't make sense that he'd do this so incorrectly as to invite more grief upon himself let alone his customers? Have you found other people with similar complaints?
I remember a few guys doing similar conversions on old Rennlist threads. Did you happen to see those?
I told Antti to send me what I need to make this work, asked the questions about the spacers for the front with the wrong answer, etc. etc. My rear discs has to be redrilled with countersinks so they'd line up with the e-brake adapters on top of everything else. I mean, it's like he sent me gear made for another car so anytime I need to replaced my rear discs I'll need to modify them. The more I think about this more pissed I'm getting. I'm very understanding with these things but it's as if he was so busy he couldn't be bothered enough to pay the eff attention to my order.
New spacers finally came in today along with the modified rear adapters.
One of the new spacers. Looks like what everyone else made for themselves that didn't buy this kit.
One of the rear adapters with 2mm shaved off. They sure are purty, and useless without spending more money to make them work. Thanks for the empathy. I was laughing today with the shop manager about the new kit from the UK to swap in the 01E Audi 6 speed that is claimed to be a weekend job. Bahahahaha! Not enough wood to touch on that, lol!
I'm surprised you managed to get any parts or a response out of them, I had to reserve the credit card charge on my last order and buy their parts through Design911. I still have their 996TT front caliper adapters sitting on the shelf. I decided to stick with the M030 calipers for now but that may change when the 3L turbo goes in.
I wanted to use 996 turbo front discs, because they're bigger and a lot cheaper than the 964 turbo discs. But it turned out the 996 turbo calipers are a ball ache to fit. So I went with the proven and well documented Big red/965 disc setup, that bolts straight on to 250 bhp cars without adapters. Also most of what I've read states bigger brakes on the rear are a waste of time.
- Jotronic
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Well, the car is finished. I had more work done to the car while we were waiting on the machine shop. I ordered a refurbished throttle body from the UK and now that it's installed and set up the car is running much better. I had an air leak at the spring on the TB that I detected with my smoke machine and that is why my idle was slightly off and I'd get a slight stumble when moving forward from a stop. Smoke machines are AWESOME for finding these problems. The shop also found that the coolant hose under the TB was about to split. The previous owner did some sort of voodoo setup assuming because he didn't have an OEM hose handy. The shop was shocked it lasted as long as it did, from before I bought the car nearly two years ago. So that was a good surprise fix. Since the rear hubs had to be removed I had the shop replace the bearings and they found that the e-brake shoes were worn so those were replaced as well. So when all is said and done, these are positives that have come about from this experience, on top of having a completely new upgraded braking system. Final bill was 8300 bucks plus tax. This included labour but also all of the custom machine work done to the custom parts that I thought were custom enough to not need more custom work. I haven't calculated how much of the final bill was brake system related, but it was the majority of the bill.
This was Antti Linkosalo's response to my frustration.
How does this justify how nothing fit?
The results. Having driven the car around for a few hours yesterday, I'm happy with the performance and the bling factor but ONLY after Juan's Auto in Richmond BC spent so much time modifying every single piece that was used to make everything work as intended. I'm being literal when I say "every piece" because it's as if Antti sent me a brake adapter kit designed to install Bentley brakes on a Honda Civic.
If anyone is researching their brake upgrade options including adding 996TT callipers to their 944, look elsewhere. 9Products.com is a joke. They don't make their own products as Antti Linkosalo told me he sold all of his machine tools so he farms the work out to another shop. The communication is non-existent. If he takes 24 hours to reply to any emails or Whatsapp messages, it's a miracle. Many questions were never answered and most that were answered were only answered after a few days and follow up reminders.
This was Antti Linkosalo's response to my frustration.
How does this justify how nothing fit?
The results. Having driven the car around for a few hours yesterday, I'm happy with the performance and the bling factor but ONLY after Juan's Auto in Richmond BC spent so much time modifying every single piece that was used to make everything work as intended. I'm being literal when I say "every piece" because it's as if Antti sent me a brake adapter kit designed to install Bentley brakes on a Honda Civic.
If anyone is researching their brake upgrade options including adding 996TT callipers to their 944, look elsewhere. 9Products.com is a joke. They don't make their own products as Antti Linkosalo told me he sold all of his machine tools so he farms the work out to another shop. The communication is non-existent. If he takes 24 hours to reply to any emails or Whatsapp messages, it's a miracle. Many questions were never answered and most that were answered were only answered after a few days and follow up reminders.
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Ooof, sorry to hear you had so much trouble. But, the results look nice, at least! Please let us know how the brakes work out as you drive the car more.
Juan R is a cool guy, he's been a longtime member of an association of independent Porsche technicians that I am part of, we help each other out with problem cars and other situations via email threads. I got to meet Juan in person at Laguna Seca maybe two Rennsport Reunions ago, that was a treat!
Juan R is a cool guy, he's been a longtime member of an association of independent Porsche technicians that I am part of, we help each other out with problem cars and other situations via email threads. I got to meet Juan in person at Laguna Seca maybe two Rennsport Reunions ago, that was a treat!
Chris A.
---'86 944 Turbo track rat
---'90 944S2 Cab daily/touring car
---'73 BMW 2002tii road rally car
---'81 Alfa Romeo GTV6 GT car/Copart special
---'99 BMW Z3 Coupe daily driver/dog car
---'74 Jensen-Healey roadster
---other stuff
---'86 944 Turbo track rat
---'90 944S2 Cab daily/touring car
---'73 BMW 2002tii road rally car
---'81 Alfa Romeo GTV6 GT car/Copart special
---'99 BMW Z3 Coupe daily driver/dog car
---'74 Jensen-Healey roadster
---other stuff
- Jotronic
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Ha! Small world. Juan wants my OEM 951 brakes for his 930 but wants to pay non 951 money for them, lol! He's a good man, and while his tech Jake is the one that normally works on my car, he's been really generous with his time in some situations. His shop is ten minutes from my home.cda951 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 9:20 pm Ooof, sorry to hear you had so much trouble. But, the results look nice, at least! Please let us know how the brakes work out as you drive the car more.
Juan R is a cool guy, he's been a longtime member of an association of independent Porsche technicians that I am part of, we help each other out with problem cars and other situations via email threads. I got to meet Juan in person at Laguna Seca maybe two Rennsport Reunions ago, that was a treat!
Thank you for the comment on my brakes. It is how I imagined it would be although I'm already planning on going for carbon pads. These OEM 996TT pads are loud and dusty!